EP7 - On The Artist Identity

If you've ever thought, "I'm not an artist..." but you get up to all kinds of creative shenanigans, we get it. In this one we get into the weeds about labeling yourself as an artist, the narratives that keep us stuck, the hollowness that comes from not creating, and why making art, even badly or slowly, is always worth it.

From our little corner of Appalachia to wherever you're listening, thanks for hanging with us.

However you're feeling right now, we hope you leave a little more encouraged to create. If this episode resonated with you, sharing it with someone who needs it means more than you know.

New episodes every other Thursday. You can follow the show, browse past episodes, and find more information at becauseofcoursewedid.buzzsprout.com.

Be kind to yourself, and keep making art.

- Birdie & Ben

Our art:

Birdie: thedawnbird.com
Ben: dwellertor.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Hello everyone, I'm Ben.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

And I'm Bertie.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

And welcome to Because of Course We Did, where we discuss life as a modern artist, the way people react to us and the things that we do, and occasionally talk about recovering from religious trauma, our own mental health journeys, and all sorts in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Today we're going to be getting into the weeds about the identity of being an artist.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

So when did you first accept that you were an artist?

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Um, I feel like that's an ongoing.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

That that is how I feel about it. It's uh it's an ongoing problem.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Um, I I feel like it's a very apparently I I mean for me it's a very distinct sort. I feel like it's a pretty distinct sort of moment because like it's a very weird story of you reading the creative act and sending me quotes from it. And I was like, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

I was just like, hey, this said that this this is the uh this is hallmarks of being an artist. Doesn't that sound familiar?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

And I was like, uh of course, right. Yeah, that's totally makes sense, right? And so I just kind of was like, oh, oh, okay. I guess I'm an I guess I'm an artist. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

And how did that make you feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Um, I feel like it's kind of like it's scary in a way to like accept it as like a identifier, but also it feels good. It feels good to be like, okay, cool. Like, I am something. I fit into some category where I've not really felt overly like I fit into a lot of distinct categories in my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

I feel like it suits you. I feel like it makes a lot of things make sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

That's not something that I was ever really people, I feel like people identified with me growing up. I feel like a lot of my artistic sort of direction or inclination, I suppose, was brushed off a lot and ignored. And so it was kind of it was a hard thing for me to accept. Like I remember having this discussion like more than once, talking about how like other people I knew were artists. Like I had siblings who were artists, I had like you're an artist, and like I've known people, I've loved people, I've admired people, but I'm not. And that was kind of the narrative that I carried for a long time that everyone else was but me. And I'm sure that stems from a lot of things I need a lot of therapy for. But I do feel like a lot of it was like everything that I did was kind of brushed off by like my parents or people around me. I feel like the only thing that it was like accepted in was in baking, because I was a baker from around the time I was like 17 to my mid-20s. And then find one too. Oh, thank you. And it was artistic, but it's not really considered an art form unless you do it in kind of a more like higher like a pastry chef. Like you're a pastry chef at a fancy restaurant or something. But yeah, it wasn't something that I felt comfortable calling myself because I feel like everything I did that was creative was brushed off, ignored, or belittled throughout my childhood. So it was like really hard journey for me to get to the point to being like, I'm an artist and like actually being able to say it, which I just tell people that now, which isn't strange, but yeah. What about you? When did you first accept that you were an artist or accept the identity of being an artist?

SPEAKER_03 3:29

I don't know. I feel like I've always been creative, but I don't know when I like donned the label of artist. I feel like that was much later in life, probably around the same time of reading the creative act. But I've always been creative and like never uh felt like I wasn't. I I didn't have yeah, like I didn't have the the moniker of it, but you know, I was playing music since when did you start 13 and uh before that I would draw on things and uh I did photography before that, you know, before I was a teenager. Still do. I do I do the the the video work for this.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

You know, that's if you watch the video version of this cinematography by Ben?

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Yeah, but I've I've always done creative things. I just didn't know that it was all linked to some bigger thing. Like it was an identity.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah, but you always wanted to be an artist though, like as long as you've kind of thought about doing work. It's been art.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Whenever Yeah, whenever I was a a little kid, I wanted to be a veterinarian until uh I learned what veterinarians did, and then I was like, I don't want to be a veterinarian anymore.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

You're too sensitive.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

I'm too sensitive. And yeah, that that was, you know, I feel like that's part of being an artist is being very sensitive. Uh being so in touch with your senses and with the world and uh getting very creative acting. This one with uh yeah, the perceiving the world like artists just perceive the world a bit fuller than normal people do. And I don't I don't know what that's about. But yes, I've always uh felt uh being I always felt that I was a creative in some way. I just didn't know the terminology because I was a homeschooler in the middle of nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah, I think it's interesting that you always like embraced it and like even though it's I guess you've always had kind of a hard time, it seems to me, like you've in the past few years of growing emotionally and going through therapy and everything and been a better idea, like being able to communicate your feelings. But I feel like it's interesting that you always had this the drive to do it. You always had the drive to it, and it was always like that's been your pursuit for most of your life is to go this direction. It's really like I'm sure a lot of people envy that, like knowing what you want, but it's also really scary because you know what you want.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

And it takes time and effort to get there.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Well, yeah, what's after that takes a lot of a lot of hard work.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

But it's a big step just to know what you want and to be able to admit what you want and call yourself what you are.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

That's true. That's true. And you know, I am I am grateful that I do know what I want because so many people are lost and they have no idea what they want.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

It's true.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Uh I'm very grateful that you know now that you are an artist and you're pursuing that.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yeah, I remember just like years of you kind of like pushing me, like you're the one who told who were like you're an artist. And I'm like, fuck that, I'm not an artist. I'm nothing. No, I'm just I have I have um self-esteem issues if you haven't picked up. Yeah, you kept telling me that I was, and I was just like, what are you talking about? What you mean? But it's like I was always really creative as a kid. Like I have been drawing, I feel like my whole life, and I've always been interested in creative things, and I was always like, let's decorate for the holidays. And I'm like, hand cut a thousand bunny rabbits for the windows for Easter. And like just I used to, we like made a chalkboard um door on one of our cabinet doors, and I would decorate it, like just change it every once in a while. And I remember for years my dad being like, When are you gonna come over and redo the chalkboard? And I was like, I wasn't working in any way as an artist. I was, I think I was baking at that point still, which I do think is a creative work. You do have to be creative if you want to do it well. Um, but I just yeah, I don't know. I used to like give my mom drawings and she would be like, Oh, nice, and throw them away.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And I was just like, okay, I guess I suck. And like I tried to read her my poems and she would just ignore me entirely. I was like, I guess I'm really bad at this. Sorry. But also, like, I mean, the whole idea of sensitivity, like you were talking about, is you know, that the um sensitivity is viewed as such a negative thing. And I feel like there's a lot of people who have been called sensitive. I've been called sensitive, and like derogatively. Like that's a bad thing. And that's like that's something that I feel like I've been fighting back against for like a decade, is like that sensitivity is not about it was like used, I feel like, as a slur against me my entire childhood. And I'm like, but I am sensitive to things. I feel things like I've seen a few people talk about this where it's like sensitive, like, yeah, I feel things deeply in the bad things, yes, but also the good things. Like I feel very deeply the various things, and it makes me understand things and be able to express them in a way that other people can't, which is true of everything everyone. And like if you feel things, you can in like your own specific perspective. And I like that could be a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Yeah, it is a great thing. And well, it's also a terrible thing. It's a bit of a it's a it is a great thing, but it's also a curse. Indeed, it is. And that's uh something he talks about in the creative act, is like these uh like specifically talking about artists, how they're the people that experience tremendous beauty and ex and tremendous pain.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

You gain a lot, but you also suffer a lot.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Yeah, it's it's which is why it's really common for for uh artists to have depression and anxiety uh due to the drugs. Leave this mortal coil.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yeah, to pop off.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah, to pop off.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah. It's hard. Like it's hard feeling things so much, but also it's like I think denying yourself the right to express these things is the worst part, really.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, it's killing you.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah, like it's the it's the worst thing you can do, is like if you have the sensitivity, you have this desire, you have this drive to create and you just ignore it. Like, I feel like your depression was so much is always so much worse. Yeah. Every time you put it away, you decide, nah, I'm not gonna do this, or you don't have as much time. Like you're always more depressed.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yeah. Specifically, I would I I think we might have said this last episode, I don't remember, but I would uh I'd be like, Oh, I really need to knuckle down into into work and I'll like I'll just sell all my instruments. Yeah. And then like after that, like, oh, we're in for it. There's like every time after that, I'm just like so depressed, I can barely do anything. Yeah. Um, and so I've stopped doing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

We're not you're not allowed to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

I've gone through therapy and I've I've I've learned that um that's a cognitive distortion. Just like just putting things away that matter to you. That matter, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Like I'm going to choose this lifestyle that doesn't align with my values. Yeah. And then, hey, wait, I'm unhappy. What's that about?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I don't know. Why does why does this life feel like too hard? Maybe because you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Yeah. So, you know, if you feel like, you know, you have an interest at all in creating art, you r you really should do it. It doesn't have to be for your career. You just, you know, whenever you find times to make stuff, please make stuff.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Yeah. And if you are struggling and you feel like you are having a really hard time committing to it and you feel really depressed, like reach out to somebody. Reach out to us. Like we'd be happy to talk to you. Big time. Like we've been there, we've struggled with feeling really depressed and really disconnected, and like we'd be happy to talk. And I'm sure other people would be too. And get therapy if you can for sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Uh my therapist said that I had persistive or persistent depressive disorder. And one of my more recent sessions, I said that uh I don't think that I can say that I'm depressed anymore, which is incredible because I've been depressed for most of my life, ever since my teenage years, and you know, thoughts of suicide a lot. But I'm like happy now. So if you can uh get therapy and you feel like you need it, please please do.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

I'm so happy so proud of you.

unknown 12:09

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

You know what? I'm proud of me too.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah. It was good.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah. So do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah. It is it is hard, and like I think it does bring a lot of like I've always struggled. I have had depression, but I've struggled with anxiety more in my life. Like some really paralyzing anxiety, and it's a lot to do with self-confidence, and it has a lot to do with a lot of things to do with my childhood and my life, but I'm working on it, and like it still struggles me. Sometimes I'm just like my first big art show I did last year. I'm still in my holidays, but last year I was so freaked out. Like I was having like nearly a panic attack before because like my self-confidence has never been super great, and my anxiety over things has always been extreme. But I feel like, you know, I've been working on therapy-related things as well. And I've been really trying to embrace the art in my life and to embrace, I feel like the past like couple years, especially. I've been like, I'm an artist and I'm doing art, I've been pursuing it, and it's been fucking hard. It's been so hard. But it's also, I am so freaking grateful that I'm doing it. Absolutely. Like, I don't want to do something else. Like, I want to do this, which is like amazing because I work jobs that I do not want to be doing.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Like, I have been in situations in my life that I have not wanted to be in, and it just feels miserable. And it's made me like so anxious. Absolutely because it's scary. Like, I feel like people don't necessarily recognize the fact that anxiety can make you just feel sick. Like you just feel like sick. They're so anxious because it's like you know something's not right and you can't do anything about it. And I feel like not like my anxiety has been so much better since I've been trying to embrace what I want to do. And like, yeah, I've been lucky that I've been able to focus on it more fully than everyone's always been able to. Like, you have to work your regular job and work on art. And it's hard, but it's possible. And I think that it's worth it to do. I've been really grateful that I've been able to like kind of shift to just focusing on this, which like if you have the opportunity, it's nice to do, but also it's not necessary. Like, I don't want people to think that you like you have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

You don't have to do it as your career.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

You don't have to do it as your career, and also you can work at doing it as your career.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

That's a very important uh that is something that needs to be said, is that like uh if you can uh work on it slowly at first, I mean you need to be kind to yourself and uh let yourself slowly work up to it because you you could throw yourself into it too deeply too quickly and freak yourself out and never come back to it and then be miserable the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

And like selling your work is like something I think you have to recognize is also like is kind of different. It is different from just being an artist. You can be an artist and not make money off of it, but when you are trying to make money off it, you have to recognize that you are running a business. And if you're not prepared for the cost and the stress of running a business, then you need to go a lot slower. Yeah. You should be doing art.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

And have people to help you out that can do the things that you either don't want to or are in unequipped to do.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, I think that's something that people forget when they go into wanting to be like, maybe I could sell my art, is like you're starting a business, my love.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

You are not just like I feel like it's like kind of simplified, like, oh, I'm just selling my art. You are, but you're running a business.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

It's running a business. It's small, but it's still running a business. I almost like want to say to some people when I feel inside and self-conscious to be like, I run a small business because I do. Like, if I don't want to say I'm an artist, I'm like, maybe I should just say I run a small business because I do. I run a small business.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

I have stand your ground, you are an artist.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

I have I have a like a workspace, I have a website, I have taxes. Like I have these things to consider. I'm running a business. Um but you like you also need to recognize that it's gonna take a little time to run it well, and it's gonna be frustrating and it's gonna be hard. But like any most things in life that are worth doing tend to be a little hard. That's the truth. And I mean, just the whole admitting you're an artist thing can be a really big hurdle to cross. And embracing it and making time for it is a big hurdle. And that's life, and life's a hurdle, and you might as well just try to do what you want with it.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Life's a ditch, dig it. You love me. You told me Ditch of Freedom. The ditch of hope. But yeah, we have uh uh a quote from Mary Oliver, who's uh one of the smartest people that ever lived. Uh the most mm-hmm. I'm excited about the new documentary. I'm gonna watch that once it comes up. But uh the most What does Mary have to say?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Yeah, well Mary Oliver uh the most regretful people on earth are those who felt the call to creative work, who felt their own creative power, restive and uprising, and gave to it neither power nor time.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Oh Mary, I agree. You know what I agree. You're gonna regret what not following your passion and your dream, even if it's in a small way, even if you can't do it full time, if you can't, you know, because of various circumstances. Like you have responsibilities, like maybe you have kids, maybe you have ailing parents, maybe you have health problems, whatever it is. But n in ignoring it and not embracing who you are, I think you will always regret whatever that is.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Yep. So please make heart and please make heart do it for yourself, but everyone will uh people will be happy about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

People will be happy about it and they'll appreciate it and feel seen. Yeah. And yeah, if you want to talk about it, we're here.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah. Thank yeah, thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Thanks for listening.