EP6 - On Spiritualizing Art

This week we're getting into the weeds about "spiritualizing" art: the books, the guilt, the church band trauma, and why we just wanna take credit for our own damn work. You might relate.

From our little corner of Appalachia to wherever you're listening, thanks for hanging with us.

However you're feeling right now, we hope you leave a little more encouraged to create. If this episode resonated with you, sharing it with someone who needs it means more than you know.

New episodes every other Thursday. You can follow the show, browse past episodes, and find more information at becauseofcoursewedid.buzzsprout.com.

Be kind to yourself, and keep making art.

- Birdie & Ben

Our art:

Birdie: thedawnbird.com
Ben: dwellertor.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Hello everyone. I'm Bertie.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And I'm Ben.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

And welcome to Because of Course We Did, where we discuss life as modern artists, the way people react to us and the things that we do, and occasionally talk about recovering from religious trauma, our own mental health journeys, and all sorts in between.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Today we're going to be getting into the weeds about spiritualizing art. Spiritualizing. So spiritual. Spiritual. So spiritual.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Spiritualizing art. I was thinking about this subject and I was thinking about it. And that's why we're here. Um there's so many, like, I was thinking because there's so many books and things about spiritual, the spiritual connection to your art and doing it for higher power, being blessed to you from a higher power.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Through you.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Yeah, like using you as a conductor for the revelation of some deity. And I was just like, fuck that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Fuck that noise.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

You know, and uh not to say that people don't get spiritual out spirituality and it's like good for them. And if it is good for them, whatever. Disclaimer, I'm not, I'm not a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Just in case you were wondering.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

I am not a doctor, I'm not a professional. I can't say, but I I just I think it's probably from years of growing up in religious circles that I feel a little annoyed that every good thing I ever did was because of God.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

So for for context, we're talking about growing up Southern Baptist or Pentecostal or whatever, and you know, just southern Christian churches.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Yeah. In my experience, everything good I did was because God did it through me. And everything bad I did was because I was a dirty, rotten sinner. And it was my fault and my responsibility. And so I just don't connect very well to this. But also I just don't feel like I'm a very spiritual person. I never did. Like I was in the religious sphere for like 20 years of my life. And I just never felt overly spiritual, which I mean probably means that I was doomed for the hellfires to begin with. Who knows? If you ask if you ask, you know, some people. But I just kind of dislike it. I feel like I feel like I want a little bit of credit for my work.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Well, yeah, that it's you do you deserve that because you've put out so much hard work to get there. Not just the work itself, but to get to the point that you are to be able to do it at all. It took a lot of practice. It took a lot of mental health work.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

It wasn't because some divine deity came down and handed it to you as like this is your, you know, also I only really felt like I could start accepting it and moving into it more after I left religion and became more of myself. So I just like, but I mean, what do you think about like the I mean, I feel like I know a lot about, but you know, other people don't. But your feelings about it, like about spirituality being included in the whole artistic process. Because there's so many different viewpoints, and I feel like some people very much spiritual spiritualize it, and some people are just they don't, or they think that if you don't, then it's not real or it's not important enough.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, like you said, other people feel different ways about it. You know, if it works for you to feel like a spiritual connection to whatever, like God or the source, whatever that means to you, then by all means do it.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

If it makes you actually use that part of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Yeah, but for me, um connecting it to spirituality has always made me kind of cringe and not like not want to do it at all. Like I will um my my main mode of art is music. I like to make music. Someday y'all will see that I will put out our intro is your music. That's true, that's fair. I'm published, I'm on Spotify because this podcast comes out on Spotify. So you're already on Spotify. I'm already on Spotify. That's neat. That's a good way to put that. Thank you. But um, yeah, I'll be making music and I'll do like a certain chord change and it'll sound very like Chris Tomlin. I'm like, oh, absolutely not. I need to go wash my hands. Yeah, so backstory on that is because um I was in a church band for a very long time. I never wanted to be in it. I tried my hardest not to be. My friends were in the youth band in youth church, and uh somehow it got dissolved into the main team, and then it was just me and a bunch of old people playing the Chris Tomlin songs.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

And I also end up in like worship teams whenever I was young. I don't know why. I don't really have any musical.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Well, wants to do it, and so people get co-opted into it. They commandeer your time to praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. But yeah, because of that experience, which was traumatic. Um, I anything that's slightly similar, I just I don't want it.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah. Um, but there is like so many things with like self-help about art and everything. I feel like so many of them like connect it to it, even ones I admire. I feel like, you know, reading like um the creative act he talks about like the source and like people like being like it being transferred through you. And I'm like, I guess because so many people do associate so much to like a higher power, even if it isn't like God TM, it's you know I feel like uh Rubin's take on it is a bit easier to swallow than like Julia Cameron's from The Artist Way.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

I'm sure a lot of people have made wonderful progress from that book, but her constantly associating it to God was a big turn off for me. Uh because of the trauma. Because of the trauma. And if you haven't guessed already, it's because of the trauma. But yeah, uh Rubin's being more like not really a higher power, but you know, the universe is a little easier to swallow, but I still feel like it's a little bit woo. Yeah, and like that's that's you know, that's great if that's what you're into. But uh for me, I feel like the things he's explaining with the source and the universe and stuff is just like you being observant, you being present in your be you being mindful, really, being in the moment and taking in your senses and interpreting interpreting them. Like that's all it really is, is it's not the spirit moving through you. It's just like you collected this information and now you can do with it whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah, and I feel like some people do feel like their work, whatever it is, is influenced by whatever they believe in. Like, and I think that is good if you feel as if it's, you know, if it's positive for you. Like, there's so much of my life that I felt like I couldn't do because it wasn't honoring enough to God in some way. And I took it very seriously, like I took it very seriously, and I wanted to be all these things, and I realized that it wasn't helping me, and it definitely wasn't helping me to embrace all the like good, like basically all the good things about myself. Like I was just like an anxious mm wreck who didn't like embrace the art that I wanted to make and the life I wanted to live. And like I'm confessing right now. Um, but yeah, I just I I do see some people who use their beliefs and they are able to channel into like good things that they are honoring whatever they believe in through their stuff and everything, and they make beautiful things and I admire them, but I feel like it kind of depends on how you were taught spirituality as you grew up and the kind of church you were in and how much trauma was put upon you through that. If what you went through was helpful or harmful, yeah, and for some people it's really helpful, like some people it seems like it does what they need in order for their lives to be happy, and other people it completely wrecks, which is interesting. But I also want to talk about like the commercialization of art and how like is it less important? Like, is it does it lose something? Because there's also like the concept of like the kind of not even just spiritualization, but kind of like the rising up, like the pedestaling of art as being like this pure like expression of human ability. And it's like so like selling it belittles it and like you shouldn't do that. Or like I feel like it can't say I feel like it can hold you back, like hold you back from like making a living off of your art because you've like risen it up to this place of yeah, to go to go on top of that, like doing that kind of thing will prevent you from doing it at all, much less make money off of it, having too high a standard for it or thinking it's way greater than it actually is.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Like it is, you know, pure human expression, which is beautiful, but that mean that doesn't mean that it's like reverent, like you should you shouldn't be uh, like you said, put it on a pedestal or anything. Like it is really important, you know, it's it's beautiful and it's wonderful, but you know, it it can't be so I don't know what am I saying.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

I feel like it can be somewhere in between, like this like very important thing that but also something practical, like a level of like craftsmanship in there with your artistry.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Absolutely, and every art has some kind of like craft to it. Like there is some there are skills that you have to hone to be able to do this art and like people bring it into their homes in some way or the other, like paintings or like your stuff, the um the the prints or the bags and stuff, um all of that stuff. It comes into the home in music. It comes into the home through, you know, headphones or speakers or uh records. It you know, it's it's a physical or you know, it's some kind of object. And so it's not, you know, it's not a spirit, it's not uh enchantment. It was crafted by human hands and brains, and it's human.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah. And like that's okay. That's great. That's good. It's one of the best things that humans do is create art and do and we we've always done it as long as like time has seemed to have it.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Like as long as we know drawings is the first thing we know about man.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

But there's also like this whole element of like we've talked about this before, but like kind of belittling it as it's not important. Yeah. Where it's like, I guess that's why so many people do attach like a spiritualization to it to make it important, to make it important.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Um, I think that's a good point because like so many people like spirituality is the most is paramount in their lives, and so if you slap art onto that, like it's glorifying whatever the the deity is or spirit or whatever, it's it becomes something more than playing around, yeah, or just trinkets.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

And so I guess I understand that element of it that it's even if people don't necessarily know that's what they're doing, like maybe that is what they're doing, that they're trying to make something more solid that can come off feeling very liquid, I guess. Like, you know, this thing there is like, oh, what is it? Is it important? Does it matter? Obviously, it does because art is everywhere and in everything, and like entertainment is art. Like the TV shows you watch, it's art, it's an art form, it's storytelling, and that's an art form. And obviously it's something we want and it's something we care about, and something we rarely abandon as people.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

I would go far go uh so far as to say that we need it. Like so many people discount it that, like you said, it's like it's not this necessary thing, but it is necessary, it's an expression of the human experience and it's relating to each other, and that is a need. Like that's a a psychological need to have a community to connect to other human beings to know that you're not alone in the world.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah, I guess it's kind of like it doesn't like I think it doesn't have to be associated to like an established religion to be important, it just is important, right? And I feel like that's something that's so hard for so many humans to like accept, especially when it comes to art, is like it can just be important, like being kind can just be important, even if God isn't gonna smite you.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Like apparently that's really difficult.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

Very difficult for some people, like, oh that terrifies me, and it's a different subject. But no, like if you don't have a lot of people, if they didn't like, if it wasn't for God, I would have killed everyone. Like you would have the only thing holding you back, excuse me, and it's like, and it shouldn't be for like I would like I can only make art for the glory of God. And it's like, well, you're providing a service for one, for people who enjoy this art, as well as for you and your life being happy and feeling fulfilled. Cause I think if you have a desire to make art, you're not gonna feel fulfilled unless you make art.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, the most uh what is it that I think it was Mary Oliver said it was like the most regretful people are the people that felt the calling to make art and ignored it. And like I've been I'm pretty sure it was Mary Oliver, but uh I I was one of those people and I was miserable.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

I was sending into depression.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Yeah, like seeing nothing, feeling nothing. It was it was really bad.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah, I feel like whenever you try to like previously in your life, before therapy and all that sort of thing, you have descended into depression when you've tried because you've put so much pressure on yourself, but also the depression that you've fallen into whenever you aren't trying at all is worse, is worse and it's scary. And um, so obviously, like it's a need. And I guess again, I guess I can understand. I'm like, Am I understanding spiritualization of art now? I was like, eh, that's nonsense. And I'm just like, okay, I guess I understand it. It's like it feels like a need to do this, and I guess like that's the only thing people can understand, like a urge like that that's not biological in a sense of like you need to eat or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

It's a thing that you feel called to, and so use it called to by God, even if it's or you know, the spirit of whatever, the source, the thing that's telling you what to do, because it feels strange. Right. It feels strange to feel like this desire to do something. I guess I just still don't think that it like it. I don't think that it's I don't believe that it's any like greater power. I think that it's just it is a human desire.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

That's the thing that I fundamentally disagree with, uh, with that kind of thing is that most of them say things like this higher power, whether it be God or the universe or something, has this thing that they're going to do through you. And I don't I don't think that's what it is because um And then nothing happens. And then nothing and then nothing happens, yeah. But I um like learning through exercises and uh like the the book we've been doing has other people's exercises and you know, just thinking about it too much because I think about everything too much. We're we're your uh modern day philosophers, um, which is why we're for our sins.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Yeah. Uh to our great detriment sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Um but yeah, through through practice is how you you hone your craft and then you can just do the things where like sure there there are instances where people had no idea what the fuck they were doing and then created a masterpiece, but that's really rare. The people that create great things consistently are people that worked on their craft, and like you don't need God's permission or a deity's permission or the spirit to move through you to create something great. You just need to show up and actually put in the work.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Yeah, because like it doesn't really matter. Like there are people like I okay, okay. It's totally it might just be God if it was like only people who credited him made great things, which isn't true. And it's like, yeah, people who credit him do make great things, but people who don't also do.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I feel like um, you know, music is my is is my stomping ground. So that's where a lot of my stuff comes from. But uh musicians are especially the ones that have created great works that people still listen to 40 years later. Um, they were often very irreverent and godless people. They weren't, you know, doing things for the glory of the God. Often the the Christians are the ones that are like, write that down, write that down. And then like 10 years later they're doing the same style of music, and then the greater culture has moved on.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true. It's a little late to the party. I guess it's like you have to be sure that it's not gonna s you're not gonna be smited for liking this thing first. Like, let's see if other people get struck down first and then we'll come in.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

They keep doing that rock and roll, so I guess it's okay that we do it.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's one of the things. I'm not sure if I should talk about that. It's one of the things that like I'm like, there's so many things in like modern Christianity that are so different from the kind of Christianity that we grew up with, which is very strange to see. Like, you've been out of that world for so long now, and like looking into it, it's like, what? Wait, you guys can do that? You guys can do that. I was in so much trouble to even consider that, you know, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

That's a scan, I better skedaddle.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Yeah. And it's yeah, it's a little, it's a little shocking. Like, I know not everyone is, you know, a Christian, white mascist, but some are. And that's not what I'm talking about though. Uh, I just like I don't want to be misunderstood and it be like, oh, like she just hates these people, like religious people or anything when I don't. Because I feel like it's also confusing for people who knew me growing up because I'm a bit different now. I mean, I'm the same as I was, but I'm also different than I was. And I'm like, I think that's just what happens when people grow up and change and move around or just like aren't within the same kind of stimulus as they always were. And I feel like I have some anxiety about like talking about these things because like I know that there's people who be like offended. Um, but like I don't I think that that's one of the things like I'm trying to choose not to be not to be upset about being misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Because I know I'm gonna be and I know I always have been. Like people are gonna misunderstand you no matter what you do or say.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah, and that's a valuable skill to have as an artist to not care what other people think, or at least not take seriously whenever you get negative comments.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

And like people are gonna like judge you no matter what you do or say, and they're gonna misconstrued what you say no matter how careful you are. And it's like, I and I know that people who like care about me wouldn't think the worst of me. I've had people think the worst of me, even though I don't feel like it was justified.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

I've been judged in and out of court.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Exactly. And I've not been to cult. Just a little disclaimer there. Last quote. Um, yeah, like I have been judged even though I feel like that wasn't fair, because like I've given you no reason to judge me. Right. Like in like that harshly. Like you can question me, you can ask me, but like you're just gonna believe shit about me that you've just surmised from like two seconds of my speech or what someone else said or something else. And I'm just kind of like done with that. Like, I'm just so tired. And I know that I won't always say what I think I always even agree with. Like, shit, I shouldn't have said that. That's not really what I meant, but I can always like apologize or make clear. If someone cares about me enough to like, if they don't care about me enough to check with me, like is it what this what you mean, what you meant? Then I suppose it doesn't matter. That's true. And that's what I'm learning, trying to learn to expect to ex accept. Right. But it's hard. It is very different. There's all like not wanting to be misunderstood, not wanting to be perceived differently than the way you want to be perceived.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Uh coming back to that religious drama, there's that uh church Christian instilled people pleasing, the servants hard.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Servants hard. That was my you should have just plastered that across my forehead because it was what was called every day of my life. And I love helping people. Like I know I do. You know I do, Michael. Like I love helping people, and it's but it's not something that I feel like I need to do to the point of my detriment anymore.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

And that's what I was taught to do, and it's what I did do for so long. And I guess there's still a lot of resentment I have from my religious upbringing that I have to work through.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Really? You think so?

SPEAKER_03 20:25

You noticed?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Oh, oh, okay. I thought I was being subtle. I I have a lot of trauma to work through and I'm trying to work through it, and it's gonna take time, but I am happy with the direction I'm going in life. I feel like I'm healing. I feel like I'm growing.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

I can see that. You are happier and lighter.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Wales anxious. God, it made you anxious.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Like I mean, if you uh if you always think that you're always sinning every day and uh just having one sin that wasn't repented for can send you to hell, then yeah, that's uh that's a pretty anxious thing to heavy, bro. That's heavy, bro.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Yeah, and like maybe not everyone got that in their raising, but I definitely did.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

And I don't think I'm ever gonna I know I'm I can't say I don't because I didn't know, but I'm pretty goddamn sure I'm never gonna be believing in this again. Right. And I have a lot of complexities of my thoughts processes about it all, and I'd talk to anyone about it in person. Like, if you want to know what I think about something, we can definitely talk about it. Right. But obviously, I can't get all the nuance of my beliefs or lack thereof in uh one conversation all the time. But I think that's kind of the thing is like I just want everyone to be a little bit more willing to listen to what people feel and without getting offended or making it.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

You don't take it at face value, like making it personal.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Like it's like I'm not talking about you. I'm not I'm talking about my experience with this sort of thing. Right. I'm talking about what I've Been through and that matters and it doesn't have anything to do with you or what you've been through with the people you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Indeed. It's like I don't remember t saying anything about you. I was talking about my own experience.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

I think that's true of a lot of subjects, though.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

It's like People just jump on you without even taking time to consider anything.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Yeah, I can just think of people like even just talking about like the spirituality of art. Like in some people that must be like so important to them. And I don't want to diminish how, like I've said, I don't want to diminish how important that is to you. Like, if that is what makes you feel fulfilled and excited about your life and your work, then great. Like I'm happy for you. But I don't understand why you'd want to make yourself miserable about me. Like, I'm not making myself miserable about you.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Like, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

People live their lives.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Yeah, I mean, I don't know why that's so difficult for some people.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah. I don't know why it's so difficult for some people. But like, you know, I there's some people that I fundamentally disagree with, but I'm not like getting in their face about it.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

But it can feel that way when especially like it feels very like an us against them situation when I didn't ask to join this fight. Right. Like in a lot of things. Like just because you view something differently, guys, doesn't mean that that's not that it's wrong. Like, just because something is different doesn't make it wrong. Like, and so many people have such a hard time with that. Yeah. And yeah, I feel like it's uh, you know, people have said it a thousand times, like, just let people live, let people do what works best for them, and I'm feeling anxious and misunderstood.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Constantly. I mean, that's what the last episode was talking about, and being uh misunderstood, like getting labeled something, or like I'm not a label.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Yeah, I'm a whole person. And like that's the only thing that I think I think that like talking about that, like we talked about in the last episode, like aesthetics. It's like you are diminishing someone down to the small like to one part of them. Right. And like that's so dangerous. Like to someone who's like, you're diminishing them to like they're a religious person, they're a not religious person, they're a man, they're a woman, they're you know, this or that. And I think that's just that's I think that's where we have gone sideways with as a culture, as a culture. And I feel like when I was younger, I feel like that was like I feel like we were breaking down those barriers and like you know, the 2010s individuality thing where you can be who you are, and like that's okay, and that's good. And we're happy, we're excited, we're listening. We want to know what's authenticity, was paramount. Yeah, and I feel like it's just like now it feels like it's just diminish yourself, diminish yourself, like sometimes like diminish yourself emotionally, diminish yourself physically in our current culture.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

And uh you can become popular or whatever, or love.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Like it's so immature, yes, and it's sad because it's not like I'm in any way uh immune to it. I mean it's everywhere, it's a lot of things you have to like fight being diminished into a nothingness, basically. And it's frustrating. It's not helpful. Life is so complex. Again, like we've talked about this before. Like, life is complex and people are complex. And the way that, like, to associate it back to what we were talking about, like your art is complex and the way you view the world is complex, and the way that you express yourself is complex, and it's this building and building and building of all your life experiences, and whether or not like you feel like you need to feel like something is brought to you through the ether, or if you just feel like, well, I'm just expressing my love of so many things, like I'm expressing beauty, and I want to share practical or beautiful or what in real solid ways. Yeah, you know, connection to other human beings. And that's what you know, I think all art is is connecting to other human beings.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah, and that can only happen if you're being authentic.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yeah, and if you're yeah, if you're like putting on a persona or trying to please someone or other non-existent people, which is trend chase is trend stuff, it's like chasing non-existent people's approval, then you're never gonna produce the art that's really gonna connect with people. And I feel like that's the thing that I concern that I'm concerned about with the spiritualization of art. Like, who are you trying to please? Like, even if you do completely believe in God, there's no way of knowing what God really wants. Like you are just you talk to him, you you got a God phone tailor and you just don't know. So you have to, it's really and if you're running it through like a like a screen of will this please God, instead of like I feel like there's so much holding back in that.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah, like it's yeah, will this please be like? So many people would disagree, but versus like, is this an expression of who I am? Yeah, my experience in the world.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

I mean, I am totally talking from my own experience because I did let my like conservative raising control so much about me. And I feel like I'm not that different still. Like I am myself, but I am a far less diminished version of myself now than I was when I was like in a very con I grew up in a very conservative town in a church, a very conservative church, and like everything was just so rigid, but also not, I didn't know what was right or wrong entirely either. Cause I feel like no one really knows. Like, obviously, there are things that we think are, but we like, I don't know. I think that's what's saying because I don't like it. And for me, I feel like I was just like scared. I was scared that anything about myself was wrong all the time. Like, like there is even just like enjoying myself I could get scolded for. Yep. Even if it was nothing, like it was laughing, it was just like dancing around, laughing with my friends, and suddenly I am in trouble. I have done something wrong. And I'm like, what so I learned that having fun and enjoying myself was wrong. Expressing yourself, expressing myself in any way, expressing my opinion, expressing my joy. It was wrong. And I like it was just wrong because certain people in my life didn't like it. Not because it didn't suit their view of what they wanted out of me. And again, this is my experience, but it made me squash myself down till I wasn't even a person anymore, it felt like. And I didn't really want to live and I didn't want to live in this world, and I felt guilty and I felt bad. And it's taken a long time to get to the point of feeling okay with myself and feeling like I can express myself, and it's still hard. I still catch myself feeling like, well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Like maybe I shouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Maybe I just shouldn't. And like, I don't know, I don't know. People are gonna think this, people are gonna think that. And I'd really like to stop thinking about other people are gonna think. I'd like to just like be like, I'm just myself and I can do what pleases me as long as it doesn't hurt other people. Like purposefully, like you can't help accidentally hurting people sometimes. Like you can accidentally forget, like you just didn't even see someone and you didn't smile at them and they're upset, and that's not your fault. No, that's not like purposefully trying to cause someone pain or discomfort or whatever is different. You have any more thoughts about this? I feel like I've high-decked the conversation having an anxiety breakdown about my journey.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

I mean, uh just to cor uh corroborate it that I had the exact same experiences.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

You know, just crushing myself down. Um I had this whole internal world where I was able to think my thoughts, but you know, around family and church and stuff, I was someone completely different. I had this other persona that I pulled out for them.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Yeah, it was a little scary to watch, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah, and so like I did work on music stuff that was secular.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Secular music.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Very inspired by uh like Bonavere and Fleet Foxes and uh other music at the time. But it was, you know, that kind of stuff was it was secular, so it was violent. It was handful, but like I I kept that didn't care about that anymore.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

I doubt it. It doesn't seem like they do.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

It was a big deal when we were kids. It was a big deal, like uh parents breaking their kids' CDs and beating them senseless. Uh but yeah, I I kept that world completely separate, and so I had two personalities and it was hard to keep track of who was who. And you know, if you're if you find it impossible to express yourself and feel comfortable to do so, how could you do so with art? And so I like I made a lot of music in that time, but I didn't really release it or do anything with it. I mean it was I was a kid and it was poor quality, but I didn't know what I was doing, but I didn't, you know, share it with anybody because who would I share it with? They they would be so blindsided by it they didn't share who I was with them.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yeah. Do you feel like it still affects you like the this no like I guess like the background of knowing that people wouldn't be okay with you expressing yourself? Do you think it still holds you back from wanting to express yourself in your work?

SPEAKER_02 31:09

I would most likely to some extent. Yeah. Probably. And but I'm I'm trying to get over that and like you said, uh trying to do things that interest me and are expressions of who I am and you know, things that I just like and would like to exist. And so I'm working on trying to do that.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Yeah. And like there's that whole like kind of cliche thing about being like the adult that you needed growing up to yourself. And at least it's like to your like childhood self, like your inner child or whatever, but it's also like to your, you know, as like a mentor in your art, like somebody that you didn't have. Like I have examples of a few people who were really kind to me, very temporarily in my life, but like people who were kind to me and supported these things about myself where I felt like a lot of things about me were ignored and belittled because it didn't suit the narrative of people in my life. Um, it's not what my parents wanted for me, and so it was just kind of ignored, and I smooshed it down as much as I could to please them because I, you know, I wanted to be pleasing. Like that's what we were taught to do, is to be pleasing. And that's the thing about art, is like it's not always pleasing to everyone.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

What can ruffle feathers?

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Yeah, and that's some of the greatest art, honestly, is the art that ruffles feathers. Like and like that's one of the things movements. It's really hard for me. Like, I don't love the concept of ruffling feathers. I don't like the concept of having this conversation overly and people hearing it and maybe misconstruuting it. But like, I also want to be honest and I want to be open.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

It's an exercise in being authentic, being yourself.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Yeah, and I'm like, you have this one life to live, regardless if you believe in in a heaven or not. Like, you have one life here to live. And how do you want to spend it? Do you want to spend it conforming yourself into something that you don't even know if it'll be acceptable to other people? You just kind of hope it will be. You hope it'll lead to acceptance.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Uh conversation about like, okay, like these people have the correct religion and these people are wrong. Like, who's to say who is right? Because all of them have the same fervor and whatnot. That's not what we're talking about right now. But yeah, that we you everyone knows that they have this life on earth.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Whether or not they believe something else, whether or not they think it's the matrix or the in the S D was itma? Uh I don't know. It's like Hindu. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

That was above my head. Nirvana.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Yeah, like there's uh one religious is it is it Hinduism? I can't remember, but it's like where though life is uh is a uh fantasy, it's not real.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

I know what you're talking about. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Yeah, but yeah, we only have this one life on this earth, and we like I don't want to waste it trying to please people, you'll never please as well. Like people who aren't pleased with you being who you are are never gonna be pleased with you being who you aren't. They may be temporarily, but there's only so much you can keep up in that as well. Like, what can you do? Like, there's only you you will always be striving to please, and they'll never be fully pleased, and you will never feel fulfilled as a person if you are working to please other people. Yep. And like that's the thing, like to associate back to what we're talking about. Like, if you feel like spiritualizing your art is what you need to do to put it out there and to live your life, then great. But if you don't, just drop it. It's fine. It doesn't have to be spiritual. It can be a craft, a craft. It can be just like I like making things pretty.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

It makes things pretty and it makes me happy, it makes me feel fulfilled, and people like it. And if you want to sell it, if people want to buy it, like and I think they will if you truly believe in it, if it's like this is nice stuff and I like it, and it made me happy to make. And like, what more can you ask for out of life, honestly? Yeah, is to m do something you enjoy and make money off of it. Yeah. If you can. And if you don't, if you don't, that's fine too as well. Like, if you just want to make stuff. Like living your life. Like you look back on your life like, man, I did a lot of things that I enjoyed. Like, does that sound so bad?

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I should write down all these quotes so that I can remember who said them. But I remember there's this guy talking about uh how, like, say the the president of Bank of America, you know, he's on his deathbed. You could imagine him saying, I wish I had created more art. But you can never imagine an artist being on their deathbed being like, I wish I was the CEO of Bank of America.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Yeah, I mean, that's the same. Like a lot of people have said things like that, like, wish I'd spent more time with my family. I wish that I had been a better person. I wish I had been happier, like and enjoyed my life, and now it's over.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah. And so if you feel desires for things, maybe you should pay attention to that and try to pursue them. And you might end up happier in the process, unless it's illegal.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Yeah, I agree. I think you should do you should listen to yourself. And I feel like you like brains are so complicated and complex. And but I think that you kind of know what you want. Even if you don't know that you know, you know. And that may not be art, but if you're listening to this, you probably it probably is about art. At least, but like if it's something else, like or something even artistic, but it's not necessarily art, like something that's like creative. Like often you kind of know what you want and you can figure it out. You just like don't wait for a sign. Like, because I spent wasted so much of my life waiting for signs, like proof that this was the right move and this was the right time. And I was like, Oh, does God want me to do this? Does he not want me to do this? I'm like, sometimes the sign never comes. And I think people who think that they are is like they just it's just what you really wanted to do. Uh also, like, you have to start working towards the thing that you want, and not wait for like some spiritual sign to come down to you because it may never come. And that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, especially if you think you might regret not doing it.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Absolutely. Should be authentic, should find out find out who you are and go be them.

SPEAKER_03 37:17

Decide what it'll be and go be it. Yeah. Ave brothers. Well, that's about it. I don't think I have much more to say about. I probably had a lot more to say about that, but I went on a tangent, so jobs are good. Job's a good. Thank you. Thanks for chatting.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah, thanks for busy good. Thanks for hanging out with us.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Yeah, thanks for listening. We love you. Probably, unless you're weird. We can't still like you. You might be cool. Please come back. Maybe misunderstood. You can talk it out. Okay, bye.