EP5 - Me Core: The Only Aesthetic That Matters

If you've ever been asked "is that ALL you do?" about your art, this one's for you. We talk about, internet discourse, whether people take you seriously at markets, why random old dudes assume you'll quit art for babies, and Ben's eternal struggle to finish a song.

From our little corner of Appalachia to wherever you're listening, thanks for hanging with us.

However you're feeling right now, we hope you leave a little more encouraged to create. If this episode resonated with you, sharing it with someone who needs it means more than you know.

New episodes every other Thursday. You can follow the show, browse past episodes, and find more information at becauseofcoursewedid.buzzsprout.com.

Be kind to yourself, and keep making art.

- Birdie & Ben

Our art:

Birdie: thedawnbird.com
Ben: dwellertor.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello everyone, I'm Ben.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

And I'm Bertie.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And welcome to Because of Course We Did, where we discuss life as a modern artist, the way people react to us, and the things that we do, and occasionally talk about recovering from religious trauma, our own mental health journeys, and all sorts in between. Today we're going to be getting into the weeds about different genders in the arts.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Different genders in the arts. That's nuts. That's nuts. We allow different genders in the arts.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Why do we do that? What is the world coming to? So you're a woman.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

I am indeed.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

And as a woman, do you feel like people take you seriously as an artist?

SPEAKER_03 0:40

I do so far. I feel like in most of my life, I have don't feel like people have taken me that seriously in the things I've wanted to do. But since getting into actually putting my work out into the world, I feel like I don't feel infantilized or anything. I feel like people have taken it fairly seriously, but maybe that's because like I've taken it really seriously.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Yeah. I I think that's an important part of it is like a self-confidence thing. You've started to believe whenever you say, I am an artist, because you are. So, you know, that's a pretty easy thing to believe in if it's just a fact.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yeah. And like thinking back, I feel like a lot of things that I thought that I could do or wanted to do and everything when I was younger, that I probably did do it like, well, I want to do this, I guess. And I feel like for the past like couple years that I've been putting my work out there and everything, I've just been kind of like, I am an artist. This is my work. Do you want to look at it? Would you like to buy it? And I do think that's made a difference. And I don't know, I think that's probably an ungendered thing. Like it's probably confidence in general.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah, I would say so.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Um, yeah, I feel like it's one of the spheres that I feel like women are taken more seriously.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Than as opposed to others. Like I feel like like women in STEM, they have a hard time in that field. But I feel like in art, people kind of have weird views and they don't take art seriously all the time. But like in a weird way you do get taken seriously because people aren't taking it seriously. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I mean, I wouldn't know. I'm not a woman. I'm not a woman.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

What about a man in art? So you haven't put your work out there all that much, but how do you feel about like being taken seriously when you'd have?

SPEAKER_02 2:29

So I'd say online it's pretty positive. Like people don't normally say anything weird about it. They're just like, oh, this is really nice. Thank you. Or uh, you know, other various positive things. They're not just like, get a real job, hippie. Um, so I wouldn't say that uh people don't take me seriously online, but maybe in person that's a different story because I I'm I still have a day job and I'll tell people that I do this as well as I'm a musician, and people will latch on to the day job part for some reason. Like I think being a musician is way cooler than an office job.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Yeah, well, like saying that I feel like people are surprised that I only do art as my job.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Do you ever get like, oh, well, what else do you do?

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Um, I feel like it's not exactly that phrase. It's more like, um, oh, is that all you do? Or like, is that is that it? Like you just you just do that full time. Like, or do you do it full time or not? And I guess I just choose not to take that super negatively because like a lot of times people are like, oh, that's great. Cause they assume you like you're making a proper income, which is nice, which I would like to make a better proper income. But um working up to that. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't think that I think that they think it's strange that you can do it as your job. But with that specifically, I don't feel like the it being your job isn't a question. Like, I feel like everyone's gonna question it a little bit. Like there's certain people who are gonna be rude no matter what, but I feel like that one's not like an extremely gendered thing. Like the thing I was thinking about was like actually at a market, some old man was talking to me and very supportive about my work, but then he was just like, Oh, when you have children. And he was like nice about it. He was like, Oh, no, he was like, Don't give it up. Like, once you have you'll have a baby on your hip and you'll be out here doing this. And I was just like, It's interesting how people just assume you're gonna like either like, and then some people be like, Oh, when you become mother, you'll just quit or whatever. Like they assume you're gonna like quit and be a parent, or you're going to modify what you do in order to be still do it, instead of just assuming like this is your goal. And I feel like that doesn't happen probably for men, like assuming you're gonna have like your children are gonna change what you're doing, which is a very odd thing, but it's a kind of a just a huge human-woman problem.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah, I would say that the experience is really similar, but not about having children, it's more about like having some other kind of like professional career. People don't expect you to make it as an artist, they think that like, oh, what are you gonna actually do? What are you gonna do to put food on the table? Like, well, art does that. There's lots of uh well-respected artists that make a lot of money doing that.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Well, I feel like that's kind of true for all artists, but um that people expect that out of everyone, essentially. But I feel like I suppose it's kind of different. Like, I mean, granted, I'm just one person, it'd be interesting to have like a a different like discussion with different people who do art to see what they think about that. But um, like there's an expectation that you can't, but I suppose with women, it's a little bit different because they don't assume you're gonna be like the primary breadwinner. And so it's less serious that you like get a real job.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, especially with this weird resurgence of like trad wives and conservatism.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Like, that's great, you're bringing in a little money. Like, I had someone like someone say something like that to me, like, oh, that's so cool. That you can just like make a little extra money for the home. And I'm like, fuck off. Leave me alone. I'm not just making a little extra money for the home. This is my profession, but okay. Yeah, like this is the deal. Like, it's so sweet that you're a dental hygienist, Becky. It's so great that you bring in a little extra cash to support, you know, Derek's income.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Like, that's not exactly fair, and I don't know why people say that kind of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

I don't know. But I was wondering about like the concept of whether or not people like respond. Like I I still think it's different via like social media and like in real life, like how people really kind of respond to people and arts, but also it's kind of difficult to say because men and women often choose different directions on art.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

They do indeed, as well as different social media platforms for the most part. But yeah, um, I feel like it is more common for men to veer towards music. There's obviously lots of very talented lady and artists. Guys, girls, non-binary pals uh doing the music.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

But um, I feel like it is very heavily male focused and then other like handcrafts like painting and sewing and things like that would be j is is more dominated by women. Not that there aren't men painters or probably people who sew, but I think that probably a cutie little guy with like making shirts or something would like m freaking cause a stampede. People would be like amazed. But it would be kind of like one of those things where like it's so nice that you help your wife out with the kids. Like, ew. But um, yeah, I feel like there's more space, at least in the spheres of the internet, that I've on for like women to promote themselves online, but it seems a little harder for men in that respect. Yeah, I would say so. Like, I don't know though, like I have followed like a couple of like male painters online and they're really good, but their social media presence is very different from the women that I follow online. But I suppose I feel like men don't really know what to do on places like Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

That's true. I have no idea what to do on Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Like, I don't know, but like do men share their work or anything like on like Reddit or something? Like, could you even do that? Like, because you're like kind of it's kind of like a semi-anonymous thing, isn't it? I guess unless you want it to be.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

It it really depends. Like if you're in a community that's, you know, pretty you know, one of the smaller ones, niche. Um then if you post a lot, people will recognize your name and that'll be something. And it you know, if you're an artist, you'll probably use your actual name for whatever it is that you do. Uh and people will recognize that.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

And you can always post in your own subreddit. Yeah, good uh good luck getting people. Do you have your own subreddit?

SPEAKER_03 9:12

You have your own subreddit? I do.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

It's just me. It's just you and your subreddit. But yeah, I I I can post on Reddit and I have multiple times, and that's normally where I've gotten people saying really nice things. Like, well, I've done like covers. Like that's all I have posted at the moment is covers and uh like I've done multiple bony bear ones and you know various things, and I'll post them in the uh associated band subreddit, and that's normally where people are like, oh, this is really nice. Good job.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

When are you going to share your own?

SPEAKER_02 9:45

That's a great question. I need to finish things.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Yeah, to finish things. I wonder if that's a thing. If that is that a male-female thing, or is it just a certain personality type thing between like finishers and finishers and experimenters?

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Experimenters. Mr. Rubin talks about. Uh I'm an experimenter, and I just saw uh a video from Nest Acoustics, and he wasn't doing all this crazy sound design stuff, and people in the comments were just like, Why don't you stop that and actually uh record these bangers into an album? And he's like, No.

unknown 10:21

No.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

And I was like, I I relate to that. Like, I've made so many really cool sounds that only I enjoy, and then I was like, Well, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

You need to make that make some songs.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah. I've had a mental block about it. I'm working on it, but work señorita. Uh I I'm working on it. We're we're doing the the exercises in the writing book, and um I feel like the block is is slowly lifting. Um it's hard to feel like I have any right to say anything. Like As a man. Well, how dare you speak, man? Yeah, it's not really, you know, acceptable.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

At least that's the way that you feel. Yeah, that that's the way that I feel because of the internet discourse.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yeah, I'm a straight white male, and people don't really care. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

It's not like maybe not quite public in enemy number one, but it's close at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

That's that's what it feels like. It's not actually that way if you talk to people in the world in the real world in uh in person.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Comment section.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, they're not gonna say anything like that, but on the social media, which is mostly what I have access to right now. That's that's how it feels.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah. It does seem hard. Like, it's weird. Like, I I really hate it because it's not something that like I want for men, I want life to be better for everyone. I am an equality believer and not a let's just switch and who's on top kind of a thing. And like it sucks because it was like for so long, women didn't have like a right to do what they wanted, and they didn't have, they were not respected and not wanted in various places. And now it's like it feels like that, at least with the internet discourse, it's like men shouldn't be there. And I feel like that's just it's unfair and it's stupid. And I feel like I don't want any world where one gender, one race, one sexuality, one anything is like the top because that's stupid and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And it's like there we don't want to crush great artists regardless of their gender. Very much. We we want to crush racist, sexist, uhwful people. We don't want to hear what they have to say. You should you should adjust your attitude. Get some pat ties. Get some pat ties and change your attitude.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Yeah. Um, I 100% agree with that, Hobbes. But yeah, I I feel like it should just be okay to be a human no matter what your uh attributes are. Like you are an individual and that makes you inherently worth something.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, and I think that a lot of the discourse kind of steered off from the idea of men stepping in when a woman's trying to talk and talking over them and like stating their opinion, and that's kind of like where the men shut up, don't speak kind of thing came from. But it's just like gone to this point that it's just so unkind and it is stopping people from being able to speak. Like, so now only like the assholes are talking who don't care about people at all, and then like kind, thoughtful, interesting people who happen to be male aren't aren't talking because they don't want to step on anyone's toes or do anything that's deemed sexist or hateful or anything. And I think that's really sad because we are stopping a lot when there's so much good that can come from everyone if they, you know, choose to have what they think if they choose to share it in an artistic way. Um, there's so much there, and I just hate to think that like some of the most amazing painters and writers and musicians and chefs and everything have been male as well as female, but male as well. And I don't want, like, you know, a freaking wolf gang uh of either in the writing of songs or the cooking of food to ever not do it because of their gender. Because that's something that happened to women for centuries.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

It wasn't good for them. We didn't like that.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

We lost, we missed so much in what those women could have done because we decided that women as a species decided that women were lesser than, and I don't want that to happen.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Right. And the ones that were stubborn and broke through, they have some amazing things. Like Jane Austen. We love Jane Austen in this family.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

But they were tough and they had some support, and not everyone has that. And it's like we're asking men to be as tough in some ways, not quite as much because there weren't legal things in the way.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, it's not the same. It's not the same, but it's just I don't want anything to ever go so far as to ever like actually stopping people from doing what I do think it's dangerous to start to think that way because that's how it ended up that way in the first place, was like, hmm, maybe maybe things should be different for different people.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Yeah. And it's like kind of like, you know, one person's rights are gonna be your rights. It's like once you start allowing things to become illegal, if you start allowing oppression to happen anywhere, it's just worrisome as to where it will go. And again, I don't want anyone, like I feel like it's definitely it's one of the things of the many things that have held you back from sharing your work, is that you feel like you don't have a right to be there. Yep. And like you feel like you don't have anything to say because what does anyone care about a straight white male and stuff? But we've discussed this, and I'm like, well, people need people, I feel like them. They need people like them and to connect with. Like it's the whole idea of representation, and not like there aren't straight white males representing out there. There are.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

There's a lot of us.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

But there's also a lot of shitty ones who are telling people really shitty things. Like we had this discussion a while back where I was like, you know, younger guys really need people like you. Like, because you've talked about being like now that you're not 19, you know, it's like it's too late or whatever. And it's like, well, there are 19-year-old guys who need a guy in his early 30s who's talking about loving things and being excited about things and feeling sad about things and everything instead of like, you know, optimize and max and all that garbage that's just poisoning little boys' minds.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

That's fair. And I'm I want to say I'd I've been trying to look it up, but we're in the woods, and so I don't have any signal.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Um, I'm pretty sure it's Robert Frost, quote, talking about half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

That's true. I mean, like, that's what we talk about a lot of time with getting upset about things that are like on social media. It's like, well, the people who are talking, people who are commenting are the loud, obnoxious, strong opinioned people. And so you don't get a lot of like, oh, here's my really balanced opinion of things, guys. Does everyone want to weigh in on this balanced and middle range opinion? No, people want clickbait, rage bait nonsense. Apparently. Like, cause freaking algorithms, because of freaking CEOs, because of garbage, and we have to say no to the man. No to the man. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, I I do I want everyone. I don't want, like, there's this whole concept because like I grew up in the early 2000s where it was only just starting to be like, girls can do things too, girls can play sports, girls can do these things. And I was like, I feel like I still have some of that, like, oh, I can't do it because I'm just a girl, you know, and I hate that discourse that's coming around, like the just a girl in girl math, and like that just like infantilizes us and puts us back in the box that we fought so hard out of. And I'm like, fuck that.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

But I like I hate that so much. Like, I'm not a woman, so I don't have that exact experience. Visceral rage. But I do have visceral rage about it because like I've known so many women in my life. I've like, for some reason, I've been one to mostly be friends with girls and strong woman. Mm-hmm. My best friend is a girl, she's amazing. Thank you. Directly in front of me. And um, y'all are awesome. Like you're you can uh are equal to men. Women and men can both be amazing. That's what I'm getting at. Like we're both capable of the same stuff.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Yeah, like I mean, I I'm not saying it's exactly the same because it's not, but it's just it definitely entices that same kind of feeling. Like I was talking about, like, you know, being young and it just being kind of like it's still kind of women, we're still in kind of boxes in a way. And I feel like we started to break, we've started to break out of those boxes. And then I feel like the current like culture is trying to shove women back into boxes. Yeah, and I just hate that. And it's trying to categorize everyone, and I don't appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

I don't think that people should be put into into boxes. Like, that's something I struggle with in music, is that like these streaming platforms want you to put your music in some genre, and I'm like, Yeah, well, well, what's my genre? Like, it's maybe it's got a little bit of everything sprinkled into it. It's music. It's it's music, it's for the people that want to listen to it. Like, I don't know what you want from me. But I feel this the exact same way about people, like people vary so much in like forcing them to fit into some kind of box. They're gonna have to cut off parts of their personality, and then they're gonna be really depressed and not know why. Well, you're not aligning with your own values.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

It's like that thing I was like, I've was raging about the other day about um uh aesthetics. Like, people, so many people at times people have told me that, like, oh, you have such like a cottage core aesthetic or whatever. And I'm like, What? Like, don't categorize me, bitch. I'm uncategorizable.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

I am be uncategorizable.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Yeah, um, be uncategorizable, damn, because we're so complicated. And I think that's what makes our work rich, is that our life experiences are so different from each other, and we're so different from each other. And I feel like that's like one of those things, like against the AI revolution, is be as weird as possible. Be yourself. Yeah, be yourself. That's something that's like frustrating because I don't want to categorize, like, you're a straight white male. I'm, you know, whatever. It's like it's not fair and it's not, it's so limiting as to who you are as a person, like being I'm cottage core. I'm not. Like I am a person who has varied tastes, and then I don't want to feel like I'm niche down into this tiny little box that means I have to stay in it because like my work is probably gonna grow and evolve with me. And what I do is is somewhat vast. I mean, there's some element of needing to do things that are somewhat like to do to master something, you have to like do it a lot. Yes. And you need to keep working on it and growing it. So like you can't just like you can, but it's probably not gonna be very successful to do like a shit ton of things because you're never gonna be good at any of them, great at any of them. You could be good at them.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

That's true, and that's one of the things that I struggle with. It's like, I want to do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and then I go. I'm so splintered because of that that I never accomplish anything.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Yeah, I mean, you have like it is important if you want to be a master of something, if you want to like not drive yourself crazy to kind of focus a little bit, but you like that's in your work, and I feel like in yourself, you need to like indulge your interests. That's true. And you need to not let people box you in. Like again, like you're not just like we were talking about. This is a while back, or it's like, well, you're not just a guy, you're a person with like a s a complicated past and complicated relationships and interesting experiences, and people will identify with you. And no matter what you've been through, even if your life has been easy breezy, beautiful cover girl the entire time you've existed, like that's gonna connect. I don't I probably shouldn't say her name, but there's an artist out there who connects deeply with all of the easy breezy cover girls out there because she's never experienced a real life. And if you've never like but connects to tons of people who have kind of had this very, very similar life experience, and there's nothing like I guess technically wrong with that. And it's like if you can kind of write about very basic experiences and people connect with it, then your complicated experiences also, because most people's lives are pretty complicated, like because your life experience is unique, but it's also not unique. Like I feel like it's actually not that you you everyone thinks that they're a freak, and ever like most people do, and most people think that they their life experiences are so different from everyone else's. But honestly, if you put yourself like you actually listen, like lots of people have had weird life experiences, and it's kind of like the thing, like with your art putting it out there, you think no one's gonna like this, it's so weird. There's someone out there that's gonna like it.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, think about one of the most popular uh British rock groups of the past 20 years, or I don't know, I'm some number of decades, radiohead. They're fucking weird, and I love them. They're great people love them, lots of people love them and still do. I see Gen Z's and maybe even Gen Alphas being like, oh yeah, this is radio.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

I think uh what's his name? Palm York. Yeah, Palm York. The weirdest people who have ever walked this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Palm York is who I want to be when I grow up. I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Yeah, I mean, I think he's like with connecting it back to like art is like I think he's just putting it back, putting it out there, like in having people like I think that's one of the biggest, the hardest obstacles, no matter what your hiccup is, whatever your stumbling thing is, is that you have to actually put your work out there and you will find people who like it. And I think his main point is just not to give up.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah, and people don't have to be exactly like you to enjoy it. Like, think about Jane Austen, like what time period is that from?

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Like Georgian and Regency.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah, I thought I was gonna say Regency, but I didn't want to seem like an idiot. But um, yeah, so Jane Austen was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

It's a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

And uh people read that still and they relate to it.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Because she was honest about her human experience.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Right, and people didn't like these days are not going through the exact same things that Jane Austen went through and her characters, but they are.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

But they are in a way, and maybe it's not exactly the same, but that it's the same human interaction stuff and everything that people can still deeply identify with.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Yes, and that's the beauty of art, is that it can be this new thing that people have never seen or heard before, but it isn't like it's not something human to it.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

That's probably like the common thread with art is that it connects people to themselves and to history and to everything because it may be different or new, but it's also not because yeah, like you said, like it it connects to a human experience. And I feel like most like a lot of people want to create things and want to share things. And I feel like no matter how weird you are, there's other people out there who are like you, and I feel like that's such a human, like a human thing and a connecting thing. And like I feel like there's always gonna be people out there who want to see the kind of work you do or hear it or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

And I feel like I say this every episode, but there's only one you no one else can create what you can create, unless, like you said last time, that you if you're just copying someone else, then obviously the person you're copying can make that.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

But if you're being authentic to yourself, then there's no one else that can do it, no matter what gender or race or sexuality or oddness you are. And I feel like, you know, again, like not boxing yourself into a certain kind of personality uh traits or aesthetic, I think is really important. I mean, like it helps you feel like you can kind of figure out yourself better, that's great. But to be boxed into it, I feel like isn't any good because you aren't whatever core. You're you. You're you, you're you core.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

I like that. That's good. I'm me core. Very silly. I like it. That's a a very positive and uplifting message.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Yeah, thanks for chatting about it. Yeah. Go team. Go team. You got anything else? I don't think I have anything else.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

You do you want to tell anybody about your your your markets?

SPEAKER_03 27:01

I guess I I mean it's will it come will this come out whenever that's a time. Well, I guess okay. I am going to be at the Big Crafty on July 11th and 12th in Asheville, North Carolina with a ton of other very talented artists at did I say the Harris event center in North Carolina. Yeah. It's my first time at this festival festival art art market, and I'm super excited. So if you listen to this, if you happen to listen to this and it's still 2026, then you should come and see me.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah. I'll be there helping out, but it's it'll be her art.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah. It'll be fun. Yeah. I work in real life. I should, I should do, I should show my work at some point.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah. I think that'll be cool.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

But if you know who I am, which is likely, then you should come and see me and say hi.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah. That'll be fun.

unknown 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Well, thanks for thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Thanks for listening. Bye.