EP2 - Imposter Syndrome

In this one, Birdie & Ben discuss imposter syndrome, what it is, how it affects us as artists, how common it is, methods we've used to overcome it.

From our little corner of Appalachia to wherever you're listening, thanks for hanging with us.

However you're feeling right now, we hope you leave a little more encouraged to create. If this episode resonated with you, sharing it with someone who needs it means more than you know.

New episodes every other Thursday. You can follow the show, browse past episodes, and find more information at becauseofcoursewedid.buzzsprout.com.

Be kind to yourself, and keep making art.

- Birdie & Ben

Our art:

Birdie: thedawnbird.com
Ben: dwellertor.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello everyone, I'm Bertie. And I'm Ben. And welcome to Because of Course We Did, where we discuss life as modern artists, the way people react to us and the things that we do, and occasionally talk about recovering from religious trauma, our own mental health journeys, and all sorts in between.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Today we'll be getting into the weeds about imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Imposter syndrome. Who deals with that?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

It's not me. What even is dead?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

It's it's me big time.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

It's actually it's really big. It's a big thing I deal with.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Mm-hmm. I mean, I think everyone who like gives a shit about what they're doing questions their abilities. Like if you don't, I don't know if you're really taking it seriously or you're not just, you know, a narcissist.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that if you if you actually care about it, like you you probably feel, you know, some kind of uneasy if you're if you're pushing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, I mean, imposter syndrome being what it is. The fact that you feel imposter syndrome, what is it? What is that? What is that? Um just thinking that you're not good enough, or that you are less than other people who do something. Um that you can't do the thing that you want to do. To me, I feel like I feel like that fairly often, but like I feel like it's gotten better. And I feel like the advice, I suppose, like if you wanted to nutshell it, which is totally not the point of a podcast, but it's just doing it, you know? Like doing the the things that are you're afraid of, which is basically it's imposter syndrome, it's just fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yes, yeah, I mean you're you're um you're afraid of people finding out things about you that you know aren't really true, that you aren't good enough to do what you do, whatever that is, but um in the context of art that you know you can't create something as good as your favorite artists or you know, whoever's popular at the time. Or, you know, you are not skilled enough to get started. That's something I struggle with, is that like I want everything that I do to be perfect before I've even practiced for the first time. So that and it sets this impossible goal that I could never reach, and so it feels like I can't even get started.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah. And if you don't get started, you'll never be able to challenge that voice in your head that's telling you that you can't do it. And in some ways, I feel like imposter syndrome can be a good thing. I guess in some ways, because it can keep you humble. Like keeps you from like thinking that you are like I feel like it can diminish your work in some ways. I think that's why it's so like pervasive. It's one of those like psychiatry things that you're the negative thing, it can be a positive thing about yourself. Like you have imposter syndrome because you care so much, like because you want to do the best and you don't want that to ever slip in like it's it's partially high standards as well, but it is high standard, it's fear of failing, and it's having a really high standard, and having a high standard is good, but whenever it keeps you from even trying, which is a big problem you have, you won't even give it a try. Like, I feel like for me, it's not that hard to try. Like, I mean, it is in some ways, but I feel like over the past few years of me, like actually putting my work out there, it's gotten easier and easier to put it out there, and so I feel less like an imposter, but it doesn't stop me from spiraling and feeling like, what the fuck do I know?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, like I I feel like it just comes with practice. You learn to trust imposter syndrome, like you you start to trust that if you're feeling that, you're probably doing something right. So, you know, you you know that if you just trudge ahead, everything will be just fine.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, but I mean like trudging ahead like with it, like with the work.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah, yeah, just just continuing on with the work or you know, bearing down into it, not like not digging into imposter syndrome that like, oh, absolutely I'm worthless, and you know that's that's not what I'm saying at all. I mean that like whenever you feel it, you're you know, you're probably on the right path, and that you should like you're pushing yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

You're pushing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

If if you feel imposter syndrome, you're not doing nothing.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, like you're like the idea, like if you're comfortable, then you're not challenging yourself. Right. And so that's how it, I guess that's how it can be a good thing, is like, well, if you feel that, but I feel like the idea is to not become paralyzed by it. It's like feel it, but like I guess to use like an awful dude bro phrase is to let it fuel you. Let it feel you, bro. Fuel you, bro. Yeah, like take it and use it. Like, but I feel like that's a lot of like mental health things. It's like you can take these things that feel overwhelming and you can use them for your and I feel like I feel I feel that. Like, I'm like, what am I doing? Why do I think I can do these things? And it's like, well, if I felt completely in my zone, if you will, that I wouldn't question whether or not I should be doing this, but would I feel fulfilled? And I've experienced that before because, like, in my previous work before I started my business, I loved what I did, but it got to the point that I felt so unchallenged that I was so bored and I just didn't I kept looking for more and it was just like depressing. Yeah, and it's like if you don't push yourself to do more, then you're just asking for depression. That doesn't always have to be in your work, but I think in your life in general, if you're not setting any kind of goal, if you're not pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, then it's like if you're not living, you're dying, kind of a yeah, and and having no goals is totally cringe.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

It's totally cringe.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

I mean, I feel like there's a thing where it's like, you know, you could not have goals in certain areas of your life. You're like, you and that's okay. Like if you're like this year is not my fitness journey year, that's okay. Like, that's totally okay. Like, or like, you know, it's just I'm not setting goals on something because you haven't decided what you want yet, in a way. Like, yeah, like some people where they're like, they don't know what they want to do with their life, but I suppose your goal should always should always have a goal. Like, even if it's just I need to figure it out, you know. It's not like well, like I don't think you need to set a goal within a career you hate necessarily. Right. Like, I hate doing this work, but I'm gonna keep setting these like lofty goals. Maybe you should set goals in other parts of your life.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, you should evaluate what your priorities are or what aligns with your values and try to, you know, shift your uh your attention and focus and dedication, I guess, to that, which is what I'm trying to do. I want to uh do art for my career, so I'm trying to shift to that.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yeah, and I felt like for a long time, though, you've let the imposter syndrome keep you from setting goals for your art. Oh, absolutely like for so many years. And like for me, I just it's kind of like weird. I feel like for me, it was just like I wasn't an artist, I didn't accept that I was an artist, and then I just kind of did. And though it's been messy, it's not been so bad, I feel like, in that. Like, I haven't been held back in the same way. I mean, I have, but just not in the work that I'm currently doing in writing. I'm totally imposter syndrome. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, you still really struggle with it. Hardcore insane. Because if you've if you've listened or if you've read her work, it's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Oh thanks, bud.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Sounds hub stack. Go find it.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Um, but yeah, like you haven't like and you set two lofty goals. So you're like asking imposter syndrome to come in and have a seat. Would he like a cookie and a cup of tea? That's the truth.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I'm I'm really bad about it. I'm just like, I want to make the best thing that's ever existed, or at least like this is going to be my legacy. And you know, that that's one of those things that comes from culture is like, oh, well, their first album was the best one, and that's the definitive one. So I always want to make, you know, I want to make the first one a good one because apparently that's the standard. But like, that's not true.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Discounting the mountains of work. I feel like that's like a common misconception because what you see as their first work is when they finally put something out that people cared about. Whereas, like, you don't know the bodies they've left in their wake, you don't know how many bands they had, you don't know how many poems they've written, you don't know how many paintings they've thrown in the trash. You know about that one great one. And if you don't play and you don't learn and you don't try because you've built like up this thing, you're never gonna get to that big thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Absolutely. And yeah, that there's examples of that, like the actual release stuff, where in my opinion, the uh the later stuff is better. I'm not gonna go into who that is since I don't want to get roasted in the comments.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

But we could go into unpopular opinions in a different way. Yeah, that could be fun. Unpopular opinions about artists and art. Do you want some hate? You wanna you wanna invite the hate?

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Fuel the haters.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

We're gonna be controversial here.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah. But yeah, well, what's what's bad about it? It's not it's you know, it's not always a good thing. Um, it's you know, it's anxiety.

unknown 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

You know, I it if you are feeling it, it can be crippling. You know, you've started something and you know, it's probably a great thing. What what whatever it is in your career. I don't know. Uh just in general, like you can feel it and then it can tear you apart. And you can let it get to you and make you stop again. So you stop feeling it because your brain will reward you for making sure that you're not feeling that anymore. And then that becomes a habit, and it's really tough to break without conscious effort.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I feel like everyone, even people who aren't artists, are gonna struggle. Like, obviously, people who aren't artists are gonna struggle with this, but I feel like people who are artists struggle with it in a in a like a special way. Because I feel like you already have all this negativity about what being an artist means and whether or not you should do it in the first place, and if you can make money off of it, if it's a waste of time, like you know, even though there's tons of examples out there of people who have made it, like, and people who do, people who do who aren't even like big time, but people make their careers out of this, but you have that extra layer there always. Oh, absolutely, you know, being every like you feel like an imposter, and you feel like everyone else also thinks you're an imposter. And like I think I can feel that in like some subtext of people a lot of the time too. I feel like it confirms. I feel like if you're already feeling like I feel like that's why it's so important to just work on your mental health and your view of yourself in your work and like feel try to find a steady footing for yourself because people are always gonna question what you're doing, no matter what you're doing, honestly. But especially when it's like, I'm gonna do a career in art. There's so many re so many things people telling you why that's a horrible idea.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Like, well, uh like what else are you doing? Or how are you gonna make money on that? That's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Or nothing, the crickets. Yes, all of which hurt. Yeah, yeah. But as someone who's working on overcoming, what do you feel like has been helping you start to overcome feeling like an imposter? Like, obviously, it's probably still sitting there, but like you've been trying, like you've started actually like working on music again after years of kind of laying it aside, even though it's something that you've been doing since you were like a kid, but you kind of stopped for the most part, like it's very intermittent, but you've yeah, started picking it up a little bit more again and started to become more determined. I'm sure it's like a lot of things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

I I don't remember what got me on this journey. I don't remember if it was finally going to therapy or not, but uh they probably had a lot to do with it. Because you know, kind of investigating who I am and what I want out of life. I think that's what came out of it was that you know, I want to do this and to to think about giving it up like at at all. Like, I mean, you know, you could still do it as a hobby, but like to think about giving up on the idea of doing it for a career just made me so depressed. Like I I was just distraught, just weeping in the kitchen to some Porter Robinson singing about being a musician. I was just like, Yeah, that's I can't uh I can't not do it. So I need to try or be miserable forever. So I like the idea of trying better.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I'm so proud of you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

But also, I feel like music is actually a little bit harder. I feel like there's a lot more negativity about music than there is about some other forms of art.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Like, I don't know why, because like people freaking listen to music and they want more music. Like you complain all the time about wanting more, and like people like I feel like to me, I feel like it's one of the more secure versions, but everyone thinks that you have to be like huge. But like some of our favorite artists are not huge, like you'd be like, Oh, I love this person. They're like, Who?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yes, that that happens to me quite a lot, not in a pretentious way, but kind of in a pretentious way, yeah. Okay, so probably a little bit in the world.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Just actually admire them though.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah, yeah. I like uh one of the people that comes to mind is Jake Xerxes Fussel. We've seen him around and he's very talented.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

He's very talented, he's a cool dude, and you know, he's not Taylor Swift, he's not worried worldwide known.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

But he's he's doing all right.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

He seems to be like he's I mean, obviously, I don't know him personally, but he is out there making music, like and he's touring a lot. Like, obviously, he must be living off of it some in some respect. And even if you could live off of it partially, I feel like if you get to live off of making art in any way, that's making it that's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I mean, just if you are able to get over your shit and actually create things, then you are successful, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, and it's really hard because it feels like I think that's something that we feel like we that everyone's I feel like everyone skips over, is the fact that maybe it's gonna take some time. Like, and just because you're not making all your money necessarily off of art, the fact that you're making any, I think, is probably like worth being excited about. And like if you just keep working on it, you can get there eventually, which is I'm just telling myself that because I go through that all the time. My imposter syndrome is like, you're like, Well, you're not making like a good income yet. Like, but I'm making income, like there's incoming.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, watch out.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Absolutely, and I'm trying to be like, you know, I think it's one of the things where it's like I think it's true for any business, honestly. Like, you need to be patient. Yes. And like, if you're not patient, then you're you've already failed. Like and most businesses don't turn a profit for a while. Like, even just breaking even is amazing. And I know that's hard because like yeah, what is the restaurant one?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

It's like you you're almost guaranteed to not break even for like two years, maybe a year or two, like and that's just that's how art is because to be frank, it is a business, and you have to sell just like anything else. You need to make it a good idea. Finding your audience can be hard.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

And it's like if you're a like a restaurant owner and you open up in a neighborhood that doesn't care about the kind of food you sell, then maybe you're gonna have to move. Like, maybe that's not the place for you. And that can happen with art all the time, like where you're sharing it and where you're trying to show your work and everything is just not the right place. And that can make the imposter syndrome blow out of proportion because you've like, I feel like sometimes we set ourselves up for it in like putting ourselves in positions where we're gonna fail. And I like that's kind of like a really messed up brain thing, where it's like, well, this seems safe, but also no risk, no reward kind of a thing. And like you don't, if you don't apply to the bigger festival, if you don't send your music to someone or send your short stories out to anyone, like, yeah, you're gonna get rejected. But like if you put it out in like your local newspaper, like a poem in your local newspaper and no one says anything, no one cares, like of course they don't. Like, that's not what they're looking for here for. Like, you have to find your audience, right? And that's true of like all work, like there's great ideas that end up not going anywhere because you just kind of like you threw your pearls before swat.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I was gonna say that exact phrase. And uh a really good example of that is we currently live in a really small town. We're trying to get back to where uh, you know, more where we're from. But right now we live here, and uh there's a small artisan market that she went to for, you know, nearly a year and two years. It was rough.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

It was rough. I appreciate it in a lot of ways because I feel like I learned a lot. It was the first time I had tried to sell my art at a market, and I demystified it in a lot of ways, and I feel like that is good. I feel like low-stakes things to get yourself out of anxiety are really good. Work out the keys. If you keep on staying in a comfort zone, then you're gonna keep you're not gonna get very far. Yeah. Whereas, like, you know, like I'm saying, like, don't don't go for the huge festival or go apply to like the biggest thing or try to get some like whatever, some huge thing right off the bat. You need to cut your teeth first, but like you need to keep growing, is what I'm saying. It's not like you don't stay there.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

You don't stay in your face forever.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah, like start sharing your songs, your poetry, your paintings online and see how that goes. But don't just do that. Like, try different places, like try to sell it at a market, try to get it in a gallery, try to play it at a um open mic or whatever. And it's like, yeah, those could go poorly, but they could also go good. And a lot of people are so kind and so supportive. And I feel like that's helped me a lot too. Like, and I feel like if I if it's like through the winter, sometimes I get more like impostery syndrome-y because I don't have the support of people. Like, I feel like you can put your work out there and people are so excited to support you. Like, unless you're a massive assistant, obviously. But like, if you're out there trying, people love it. Like, just having like people being so kind and supportive of you out there trying to do something is like I recommend it. It's like, yeah, not everything I've ever done has been like wonderful. Like, people have been weird and rude and like, but then like it's like well, not the discounting the positive, like, which is another therapy speak thing. But if you take on what only the negatives, like, then you're only going to feel negative. But like, if you listen and you hear all these people who are so excited about what you're doing, it helps bolster it. I've even like at markets, I've had like a little note on my phone and wrote down some of the really nice things that people have said to me so that whenever I'm struggling, I'll just I'll look at it and be like, oh, that was I that I didn't make that up in my head because that's a huge problem I have where I'm like, nah, that didn't even happen, right? Yeah, it's really helpful to actually get yourself out there because if you hide it constantly, then you aren't going to ever feel like it's just you, and you can be so mean to yourself. Like you're the imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Exactly. And I mean, that is where it comes from. It's your own brain. But um, I have this written down in my notes that um to record your feelings and you know, positive things when uh you know you're feeling up and good things happen, so that whenever you're down, there's there's hope for you to draw on. And I have this quote, I don't remember who said it, but it was nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. And that's what that's talking about. Try to whenever people do give you good comments or, you know, say they they love your stuff, you know, take that to heart and hold on to it. Whenever there are people that inevitably will give you some shit for it, then like they're going to um, you know, you need to ignore that unless it is. Because it doesn't freaking matter. But most likely not.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Because like you don't need to be. You don't need all of you don't need everyone to love what you're doing. Absolutely not. You need a collection of people to love it. But you can find those people if you just put it out there. Like try different places. Like I've done other festivals and things where it's just, it was like almost nothing but constant kindness and only a few, like, you know, negative or whatever comments. And holding on to that, like, is really important. Not that I'm always great about it. Like I'm really not. And someone's like, actually, it's all shit, and everyone hates me. But those times grow smaller. I feel like they're growing smaller and smaller as I keep trying to practice being like positive and to hold on to the positive things. And the more I put myself out there, and the more that I test the waters and the more that I feel that I am not a fraud, an imposter, or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah. No, that that's right. You just have to get started and stay started. Or restart when you fall off. And constantly be evaluating where you are. You know, it's you can't just pick a path and stick to it. You know, it could, like we were talking about with this small market, eventually like it was good at the beginning, but at some point you're gonna outgrow it and you need to do bigger things. Yeah. And that's gonna be true with every bit of art career there is.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah. And I think, yeah, just challenging yourself is really important. My first like three sales were super exciting, but whenever a market continues to be three sales, you know, that's kind of sad. You know, you want to keep pushing yourself to like create more and do more, and also like get yourself in a position where you're being appreciated, honestly. And that's what I'm trying to do is like find places to put my work because like just sharing it on the internet is like you are in the most massive pit. Like it is so much, and I feel like definitely like putting yourself out there more locally, whatever it is you do is really helpful. Cause like people also that's also I feel like good advice. Like, because people in your community want to support you, like people love it, like I love it. And I was like, Oh, you live locally, that's awesome! Like, it's so nice to support someone who's local. Like, the internet is such like a negative place, and it's not always because it I think it intends to be, it's just like they don't know you and they don't have any connection to you. And I think easy outlet for being mean, yeah, and like some unfortunately, some people feel the need to do that, but or they just ignore you because like honestly, they don't even see you, and it's like being like actually out there in your community, I feel like can like they can actually see you and they can connect with you because you share this thing in common that you're there, and I feel like that does, you know. I I don't know, I feel like you're making like a we it is true, but I feel like there is internal work, like, but I do think actually being out there with people is a really important part of challenging imposter syndrome. I think there are internal things, like there's you being kind to yourself, it's you being patient process that you're going through, and that and recognizing that it's gonna be ups and downs, like it's not all going to be and like not to beat yourself up if you do start feeling really bad and like that you are uh an imposter, that you will feel that way. And I feel like that's not a failure, it's just a fact of life really. You're just gonna occasionally feel bad about yourself, but I feel like the more you work on believing in yourself and the more you get, you know, actual exposure to other people who get exposed to your work, the more you will stop questioning what you're doing, which I feel like is what we're talking about, like with you, like we're trying to get you out there to feel confident to get out there to share your work because you only have yourself and me and like not very much to go off of. Whereas like I've been doing this for a few years now, a couple years now at least, of putting myself out there like physically in the world. And I feel like it has helped comp my confidence, like because I was just posting online and I just didn't have that much like confidence because people don't react very well online or at all. Whereas, like, you know, actually getting to the point where you have that and not that people's opinions matter, but they do if you're trying to make money off of it. But it's like not in like a not in a negative way. Like, I feel like that sounds bad. It's like you will have people who will absolutely adore your work.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So that yeah, uh to to make sure that people understand what we mean by that is that you should be authentic to yourself, you should do things that interest you, you know, do things you want to do because you want to do them, and that's really important. Yeah. And stick to that. But uh people will not like it. Some people will not like it, but other people will adore it. And so, you know, stick stick to your guns with them.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

I think no matter what you do, there will people, there will be people who adore what you do.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

And I feel like I think that's also a big element of it, like pleasing yourself, like you were saying, you know, pleasing yourself, I think is a big I like imposter syndrome's gonna be worse when you're trying to please other people. I guess I've tried to do that. I've tried to do like, oh, I think people might like this, but I'm like, ugh, I'm just like, what am I doing? Like, I don't like this, and I feel like this is nothing.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

And if you're doing things for other people, you might as well just be a regular employee.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah, I agree. It's a bitch, but it's overcomable, and it is a process, but it's a journey that we're all on, and we can get better.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah. Do you have anything else to say about imposters and try to death? I really don't.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

I think that's all there is to say about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

I think we did a pretty good job. At least I hope we did. I want to leave you with some hollowed words from some of our favorite writers. This one comes from Wendell Barry. He says, You can't know where life will take you, but you can commit to a direction. And I think that is.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Hell yeah, brother.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah.